Sarah Carter and I went into this conversation ready to talk about her excellent article, “The Evangelization Mistake I Made For Years: Missionary discipleship isn’t supposed to feel like this.” And then we spent the first half of our time discussing deconstruction and Henri de Lubac!
Question for you and Sarah, Paul: I believe with you that we have to hold the tension between the ideal of Church and the real life institution. True in our national civic life too we have to hold that tension while working for a "more perfect union." However, in the Church, unlike the nation, we do not have mechanisms like courts and elections to exercise some control and solve some problems within the institution. All the power is in the group receiving Orders and we depend on them to keep the real life institution aligned with the Gospel. I've been thinking we need some reforms, not to eliminate the tension, but to allow shared power to reduce it to productive levels. What do you think? Maybe in the future for your generation? No pressure!
I totally agree with you. I think synodality had that vision of a more collaborative exercise of ecclesial authority between lay and ordained. But how much those proposed reforms will actually be implemented on the ground in parishes and dioceses is very much up in the air.
That being said, as we hope and pray for to-down reform, I also think lay people need to exercise our own authority as priests, prophets, and kings. How much would cultural and institutional structures in the Church have to change if lay people stopped contributing and tolerating clericalism? If we stopped tolerating spiritually abusive homilies? If we stopped following abusive youtube priests and apologists? If we stopped giving money to any parish, diocese, or Catholic org that isn't using its authority with care, respecting human dignity and conscience? What if we, lay people, actually believed survivors of abuse in the Church?
99% of the Church is not ordained, at the end of the day, I think we have power to sustain or suffocate structures of sin in the Church.
No doubt you are right, Paul, if Catholics were united in mission and remained to do the hard work of organizing. I've seen many groups try and wear out since Vatican II and many friends and family go other Christian paths. Without leadership from bishops and pastors, as with synodality, the prospects are daunting. The Francis and Leo bishops may be more adept at uniting the Church and providing faith formation. I've read that Pope Leo has written to the USCCB about uniting around immigration policy. If they unite for that issue, I have hope that they may move forward together in the direction he gives.
What an incredible conversation this was! Thank you so much and Sarah! I found myself wishing many times that I could have joined it because so many of the points you guys touched where themes I have wrestled with and journeyed through deeply in my own adventure with God.
There were already so many books mentioned in your conversation, but if I may, I'll add two more that popped to mind which were relevant for me when traversing the same spaces:
1. "The Afternoon of Christianity: The Courage to Change" by Tomas Halik https://a.co/d/4tFwlMG brought me renewed hope about the Church with his vision of how the Catholic Church has yet to enter her maturity, and what that invitation into the 'second half of life' for the Church looks like.
2. "The Spiritual Journey: Critical Thresholds and Stages of Adult Spiritual Genesis" by Francis Kelly Nemeck and Marie Theresa Coombs https://a.co/d/ipzlYqf powerfully brings home the point you both spoke at length on - how when it comes to a person's spiritual journey the goal is UNION, and that with God time is always greater than space, AND God always works in the reality of each moment of each person's life with infinite love.
I will end with a quote that Dr Nathan Jacobs shared on Substance a week ago (from a longer piece of his) which I found so beautiful and which rang true to my bones about the God I continue to come to know and experience:
"With the Eastern patristic view, just because a soul has left its body does not mean its story is closed. So, even if we grant a scenario in which Mr. O’Connor persists in unbelief until his last breath, and do not think that even this demonstrates ultimate unbelief. For his story does not end there. And even in the darkness of Hades, his Maker will pursue him. For it is contrary to the nature of God to abandon any. Or as Elder Sophrony once said when asked if God would succeed in rescuing all, I cannot be certain. But you may be certain that as long as someone is in Hell, Christ will remain there with him. For he is Good and the Lover of mankind." (https://substack.com/@nathanajacobs/note/c-166465568?r=dpbaq&utm_source=notes-share-action&utm_medium=web)
Question for you and Sarah, Paul: I believe with you that we have to hold the tension between the ideal of Church and the real life institution. True in our national civic life too we have to hold that tension while working for a "more perfect union." However, in the Church, unlike the nation, we do not have mechanisms like courts and elections to exercise some control and solve some problems within the institution. All the power is in the group receiving Orders and we depend on them to keep the real life institution aligned with the Gospel. I've been thinking we need some reforms, not to eliminate the tension, but to allow shared power to reduce it to productive levels. What do you think? Maybe in the future for your generation? No pressure!
I totally agree with you. I think synodality had that vision of a more collaborative exercise of ecclesial authority between lay and ordained. But how much those proposed reforms will actually be implemented on the ground in parishes and dioceses is very much up in the air.
That being said, as we hope and pray for to-down reform, I also think lay people need to exercise our own authority as priests, prophets, and kings. How much would cultural and institutional structures in the Church have to change if lay people stopped contributing and tolerating clericalism? If we stopped tolerating spiritually abusive homilies? If we stopped following abusive youtube priests and apologists? If we stopped giving money to any parish, diocese, or Catholic org that isn't using its authority with care, respecting human dignity and conscience? What if we, lay people, actually believed survivors of abuse in the Church?
99% of the Church is not ordained, at the end of the day, I think we have power to sustain or suffocate structures of sin in the Church.
No doubt you are right, Paul, if Catholics were united in mission and remained to do the hard work of organizing. I've seen many groups try and wear out since Vatican II and many friends and family go other Christian paths. Without leadership from bishops and pastors, as with synodality, the prospects are daunting. The Francis and Leo bishops may be more adept at uniting the Church and providing faith formation. I've read that Pope Leo has written to the USCCB about uniting around immigration policy. If they unite for that issue, I have hope that they may move forward together in the direction he gives.
What an incredible conversation this was! Thank you so much and Sarah! I found myself wishing many times that I could have joined it because so many of the points you guys touched where themes I have wrestled with and journeyed through deeply in my own adventure with God.
There were already so many books mentioned in your conversation, but if I may, I'll add two more that popped to mind which were relevant for me when traversing the same spaces:
1. "The Afternoon of Christianity: The Courage to Change" by Tomas Halik https://a.co/d/4tFwlMG brought me renewed hope about the Church with his vision of how the Catholic Church has yet to enter her maturity, and what that invitation into the 'second half of life' for the Church looks like.
2. "The Spiritual Journey: Critical Thresholds and Stages of Adult Spiritual Genesis" by Francis Kelly Nemeck and Marie Theresa Coombs https://a.co/d/ipzlYqf powerfully brings home the point you both spoke at length on - how when it comes to a person's spiritual journey the goal is UNION, and that with God time is always greater than space, AND God always works in the reality of each moment of each person's life with infinite love.
I will end with a quote that Dr Nathan Jacobs shared on Substance a week ago (from a longer piece of his) which I found so beautiful and which rang true to my bones about the God I continue to come to know and experience:
"With the Eastern patristic view, just because a soul has left its body does not mean its story is closed. So, even if we grant a scenario in which Mr. O’Connor persists in unbelief until his last breath, and do not think that even this demonstrates ultimate unbelief. For his story does not end there. And even in the darkness of Hades, his Maker will pursue him. For it is contrary to the nature of God to abandon any. Or as Elder Sophrony once said when asked if God would succeed in rescuing all, I cannot be certain. But you may be certain that as long as someone is in Hell, Christ will remain there with him. For he is Good and the Lover of mankind." (https://substack.com/@nathanajacobs/note/c-166465568?r=dpbaq&utm_source=notes-share-action&utm_medium=web)