Today, I’m sharing a conversation I had a few weeks ago with Ann Yeong, for her podcast, Becoming Me, about spiritual abuse within the context of evangelization.
Thank you so much, Paul and Ann. Clear and convincing ideas.about evangelizing and discipleship..Respect for individual personal freedom is in short supply in the Roman Catholic Church. Your identifying that lack of awareness as the cause of spiritual abuse is very helpful.
I have a question for you two: do you think that the emphasis on the "numbers game", or "butts in the pew" comes from the belief that the sacraments are efficacious in themselves, ex opere operato? Not just that they operate to give grace despite the intent of the officiant but also that they produce grace despite the intent of the recipient? Not much human consciousness needed. I'm not suggesting that the Church teaches that intentionally, I'm pretty sure it is clear that one cannot have malicious intent, but how about being on auto-pilot? Do the bishops believe that getting people into the pews and initiated in the sacraments is the necessary process? After that, grace does the work.
Hi Paula, I think the reasons for why so many default to the "numbers game" or "butts in the pew" are many and complex because human motivation is complex. Some have nothing to do with the sacraments or even faith at all, especially when one's performance or apparent "success as a disciple or pastor" is felt to be measured by how many people you bring in for events, new members for discipleship communities, or bring back to mass.
Having worked for two different pastors I have observed how (unacknowledged) human insecurities drive pastoral and administrative decisions to focus on the tangible and quantifiable. Large turnouts often lead to more attempts to replicate or amplify what "worked", and small turnouts are seen as failure or lack of success even if there had been real impact on the smaller numbers that participated.
Another way of looking at the emphasis on numbers is how we understand and experience what it means to "be Catholic". The operating underlying cognitive assumption for many people (again this is often not conscious) is that being Catholic is more about belonging to an organised /institutional religion than an interior journey of deepening intimacy with Christ. From this perspective, increasing membership and conformity (clear external identity) is necessary for our religion's survival and numbers and external observable behaviour becomes more important than the life-long, non-linear, messy and far richer interior landscape of theosis towards union with God!
I personally see this as reflecting different stages of the faith development journey. There's a wonderful book titled The Critical Journey: Stages in the Life of Faith that explains how the emphasis of most churches / organised religions tends to be in the earlier stages and that is also why people who mature beyond the early stages tend to struggle in the faith spaces they used to inhabit and begin to seek resources for spiritual growth 'elsewhere'. (https://a.co/d/iOPeOE1)
Hi, Ann. Thanks for the good explanations, especially the one about stages of development. I have experienced that first hand over the years. I think the conclusion that you and Paul came to at about 43:58 of your conversation is the heart of the matter: disciples, like Jesus, connect with the persons before them. I can't seem to stop myself from analyzing the institution for THE reform that will align it with Jesus' way. Not my lane, really. The Spirit of Jesus is with you in your work.
I don't think the Church teaches that sacraments produce grace despite the intent of the recipient. Or rather, I think a more accurate description would be that the offering of grace is always available for anyone who receives a sacrament but how fruitful it is in a person is dependent on their desire and disposition.
If bishops do believe (and I don't know what they believe) that all they have to do is get butts in pews and grace will take care of the rest...I would think that's a very impoverished and neglectful understanding of evangelization.
Thank you, Paul. Of course, I favor your version. Do you think the problem might have something to do with imagining grace as a substance? The sacraments involve a person in a system of events, experiences, and personal interactions. If one is mindful those experiences produce calls on one's humanity and opportunities to respond. I like to think of grace like that. A community that is loving God and neighbor attracts new members, i.e., evangelizes. As you say, we have no idea what the bishops think grace is. Thanks for your work.
Thank you so much, Paul and Ann. Clear and convincing ideas.about evangelizing and discipleship..Respect for individual personal freedom is in short supply in the Roman Catholic Church. Your identifying that lack of awareness as the cause of spiritual abuse is very helpful.
I have a question for you two: do you think that the emphasis on the "numbers game", or "butts in the pew" comes from the belief that the sacraments are efficacious in themselves, ex opere operato? Not just that they operate to give grace despite the intent of the officiant but also that they produce grace despite the intent of the recipient? Not much human consciousness needed. I'm not suggesting that the Church teaches that intentionally, I'm pretty sure it is clear that one cannot have malicious intent, but how about being on auto-pilot? Do the bishops believe that getting people into the pews and initiated in the sacraments is the necessary process? After that, grace does the work.
Hi Paula, I think the reasons for why so many default to the "numbers game" or "butts in the pew" are many and complex because human motivation is complex. Some have nothing to do with the sacraments or even faith at all, especially when one's performance or apparent "success as a disciple or pastor" is felt to be measured by how many people you bring in for events, new members for discipleship communities, or bring back to mass.
Having worked for two different pastors I have observed how (unacknowledged) human insecurities drive pastoral and administrative decisions to focus on the tangible and quantifiable. Large turnouts often lead to more attempts to replicate or amplify what "worked", and small turnouts are seen as failure or lack of success even if there had been real impact on the smaller numbers that participated.
Another way of looking at the emphasis on numbers is how we understand and experience what it means to "be Catholic". The operating underlying cognitive assumption for many people (again this is often not conscious) is that being Catholic is more about belonging to an organised /institutional religion than an interior journey of deepening intimacy with Christ. From this perspective, increasing membership and conformity (clear external identity) is necessary for our religion's survival and numbers and external observable behaviour becomes more important than the life-long, non-linear, messy and far richer interior landscape of theosis towards union with God!
I personally see this as reflecting different stages of the faith development journey. There's a wonderful book titled The Critical Journey: Stages in the Life of Faith that explains how the emphasis of most churches / organised religions tends to be in the earlier stages and that is also why people who mature beyond the early stages tend to struggle in the faith spaces they used to inhabit and begin to seek resources for spiritual growth 'elsewhere'. (https://a.co/d/iOPeOE1)
P.S. Should you be interested, I did an episode summarising these stages of faith here: https://www.becomingmepodcast.com/stages-of-maturing-faith-insights-from-the-critical-journey/
Thank you for your question!
Hi, Ann. Thanks for the good explanations, especially the one about stages of development. I have experienced that first hand over the years. I think the conclusion that you and Paul came to at about 43:58 of your conversation is the heart of the matter: disciples, like Jesus, connect with the persons before them. I can't seem to stop myself from analyzing the institution for THE reform that will align it with Jesus' way. Not my lane, really. The Spirit of Jesus is with you in your work.
I don't think the Church teaches that sacraments produce grace despite the intent of the recipient. Or rather, I think a more accurate description would be that the offering of grace is always available for anyone who receives a sacrament but how fruitful it is in a person is dependent on their desire and disposition.
If bishops do believe (and I don't know what they believe) that all they have to do is get butts in pews and grace will take care of the rest...I would think that's a very impoverished and neglectful understanding of evangelization.
Thank you, Paul. Of course, I favor your version. Do you think the problem might have something to do with imagining grace as a substance? The sacraments involve a person in a system of events, experiences, and personal interactions. If one is mindful those experiences produce calls on one's humanity and opportunities to respond. I like to think of grace like that. A community that is loving God and neighbor attracts new members, i.e., evangelizes. As you say, we have no idea what the bishops think grace is. Thanks for your work.